The IN-LINE PRIMITIVE ARMS MYTH...

[Mongojoe]

I honestly can't recall if this has been brought up before or not...but if it has...well, then here it is again...
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Now, this is just my personal opinion, and not ment to cause anyone any heartburn, or whizz anyone off................

Perhaps it's just me...but I have a problem with the "new primitive arms" ... I always figured the words "primitive arms" meant just that...primitive arms... the old style percussion or flint type rifle styled after actual primitive arms that were in use 150 or more years ago... not these new fangled, in-line, front(usually, but not always any more)stuffers, with "thumb hole" laminated, or synthetic stocks, stainless steel barrels, 3 inch Kick-reducer butt pads, and 3-9X40 LEUPOLD scopes with optional screw on sun shields, and bullet drop compensator's...... People can say what they will, but these things ARE NOT primitive arms by any stretch of the imagination... The ballistics of alot of these rifles and loads come very close to equaling, and in some cases, bettering the grand old .30-30 Winchester or other, more "modern" cartridges.

Now, I have nothing whatsoever against these guns themselves, or any other gun for that matter. They simply are what they are... and I have friends that shoot them...and I wouldn't mind having one myself, if I had a use for it.... But, I just believe that they should be put into the category they actually belong in... My own opinion is that these "new crop" of in-line muzzle loaders should be legal to use for big game hunting only during regular gun season... Not "primitive arms season"... The original intent of the different state's variously called "Muzzle loading", "Black Powder", "Primitive Arms", etc. seasons, was to give the person who enjoys hunting with the less efficient firearms of yesteryear the opportunity to harvest game while not having to compete with the modern, much more efficient arms and cartridges of today... Otherwise there would have been no reason to make separate seasons.

Let's face facts here... these guns, and the equally new, quick expanding, polymer tipped, jacketed, boat tailed, aerodynamically designed, saboted, super bullet, along with the Super-pryo, blocks, or pellets, or columns, or wads, or discs(with plastic holder), or whatever form or consistency the newest "powder" comes in today, not to mention the ever expanding array of scopes, some of which are built specifically for use on muzzle loaders...are NOT in any way, shape, form, or fashion, "primitive arms", other than the fact that they are single-shots...but then so is the RUGER #1, and the TC Encore, and no one would ever call them "primitive"............... This is all akin to racing your 2009 Mustang GT in an antique Model-T FORD race..... after all, they are both FORDs and both have 4 wheels and run on gasoline....but one sure isn't an "antique" even if it does have an "ah-oogah" horn on it and "spoke" wheels............... People can call them whatever they want to...muzzle loaders, black powder rifles, front stuffers, or Fred, if they wish, but they are not "primitive arms... Just calling a Learjet a duck because they both fly, doesn't make it one.

Now, that is just my opinion....what is yours ?

[rugerredhawk]

I'm guilty myself of using Inlines,on the other hand I have to agree with you for the most part.I have used both cap locks and inlines. I like both but the modern day inlines do give some advantage. I just bought the wife for Christmas a 50 cal Inline T/C and have a couple of BP scopes on order. So I guess it's safe to say I'm one of those who you are taking about LOL.I got her a inline mainly for hunting behind the house. We have allot of deer here. I don't want to use a HP rifle with houses in the general vicinity and she has never shot a bow that I know of before. On top of that she has shoulder problems.

I have several boxes of Sabots/XTP bullets.I have some of the power points or whatever they are called.Then I have allot of molded roundballs/maxiballs and several different size bullet molds. I have cans of black powder and I have Pyrodex pellets ,I have percussion caps,musket caps and 209 primers.I have caplock muzzleloaders and inlines .So what I'm getting at or saying I have several different choices on what we can use and all are legal.

No I do agree with you modern day inlines have changed what primitive weapons used to be.

I don't think you have offended anyone (plus it just basically us here and a few others anymore LOL ) and that's your opinion which you are more then entitled to express.Yes I do agree with you for the most part but on the other hand everything in time changes.It's an individuals choice what they choose to use.If it's by legal means the way they take game in their state then it's their choice which way they want to do it.

It's just like the so called Assault Weapons. I personally have no use for one even though I have a couple Mini 14's. It's just not my thing.Do I think they should be banned or restricted? No.I think an individual should have the right to possess what they like or want.

This is a debate that could go on forever.

I belonged to a muzzleloading club in S.FL back in the mid 70's throughout most of the 80's. That was before inlines came to be.We had allot of fun shooting matches with the ole smokepoles.I haven't been back to the club since I moved in late 89 from there. For all I know they might have some using inlines when others are still using caplocks and flintlocks.

Not to open another cans of worms. I have never been much of a bow hunter. Years ago I tried it and just never got into it.I have a few old compound bows. I had a old recurve before them. In all honesty have not followed bows and how they have changed or developed over the years. I have watched commercials showing modern bows. They are nothing like the bows I have or had. Once again things change.Did these modern pieces of archery equipment change primitive weapons?
What it all boils down to changes are what makes the world go around.If everyone liked the same thing it would be a awful boring world we live in.

Unfortunately nothing stays the same. It's either change with the times or stay with the old school.

[Mongojoe]

Now, I didn't say I had anything aginst them. In fact I even said that I don't, in the first sentence at the beginning of the second paragraph above... And if a person is into them, that is just fine..... All I am saying is that they should be classed where they belong, as far as use for hunting is concerned....and I can't for the life of me, see how anyone can consider them "primitive arms". With all the "bells and whistles" they can and do carry, the only difference between them and your RUGER#1 is that they take a little longer to reload...and they may be a little more fancy than the RUGER.

And I have never suggested that any gun be banned...nor restricted, for that matter. I only said I believe they should be classified with modern rifles as far as hunting goes, as opposed to classifing them with your Hawken or Kentucky rifle, which are actual primitive arms........ And too, I don't consider the Mini-14, SKS, AR-15, or 10-22, as "assualt weapons", unless they have been modified to function in a fully automatic mode.

And I totally agree 100% with your statement, "I think an individual should have the right to possess what they like or want."......within reason of course. I can understand having restrictions on private individuals owning RPG's, M-79's, SAM's, LAW's, mortars, and such.

And again, rather like you, I have not kept up with the advancements in archery either. I still have several old recurves, and even 2 or 3 long bows around here somewhere, but I do not own a compound.... But, bows are a somewhat different subject than are guns... No matter what advancements that have been made, they are still limited to being short range weapons, depending more on the arrow's broadhead doing internal damage than on shock value or energy.... Now, when bows become advanced to the point that they start making effective and repeatably efficient killing shots at distances approaching 200 yards and beyond, then I'll start forming and voiceing opinions about them too.

And again I agree 100% when you say, "Unfortunately nothing stays the same. It's either change with the times or stay with the old school.".....and that is exactly my point...... The primitive arms/muzzleloader/blackpowder/etc. seasons were created so that those who chose to do so, could hunt with "old school" weapons, using skills almost forgotten by most "modern" hunters such as stalking, tracking, patience, and stealth, to get close enough for a successful shot....and not be in direct competition with others in the woods who pick off their deer at ranges of 200 yards and beyond.... These new in-lines completely negate that.

As I have told you, I have nothing whatsoever aginst these guns. I am sure they are fine weapons, and if someone wants to hunt with them...that's great...... I'm just saying that I believe they should be used during the same season as other guns that share the same ballastic advantages..."regular" gun season....and not be used during primitave season when they definately hold a decided advantage over true primitive arms........... Otherwise, what is the use of even having a seperate primitive arms season ?

[whitelightning]

New fangled inlines? when was the Pauley desinged?

[Mongojoe]

Jan 11, 2009 14:24:00 GMT -5 whitelightning said:

New fangled inlines? when was the Pauley desinged?

LOL...... When I said "new fangled inlines", I just assumed everyone realized I was speaking of......."in comparison to flintlocks and percussion rifles of 150 or so years ago, as well as their replicas which are made today" ...... But, I probably should have realized that not everyone gets the same meaning from someone else's words...................... Now, as for when the "Pauley" was "designed"... I really couldn't say... You would probably have to ask Ms. Perrette's parents about that... But I sure do like her as Abby Sciuto, the forensic scientist, on NCIS.

[rugerredhawk]

Mongo said.........Now, I didn't say I had anything aginst them. In fact I even said that I don't, in the first sentence at the beginning of the second paragraph above....


I know you said that and like I said I agree with most of what you said.Yes the in lines have definitely changed what Primitive weapons are or was. I also agree they should be in the same class as a modern rifle,and not classified as a primitive weapon when it comes to hunting and only hunting. However for some reason the game commissions have accepted or classified them as primitive weapons for the most part.Since I have a couple inlines I might as well use them.

Maybe I said things that didn't come out they way I meant them to say.Nothing says a person has to change with the times.To each their own.If you or anyone else want to throw spears or boomerangs that's fine with me. As long as it's by a legal means.I have shot deer with both caplocks and the modern in lines. The deer don't seem to know the difference.I will admit I felt better about the take when I used a caplock making it feel more like a challenge then using a lnline or HP rifle.

I know you didn't say they should be banned or restricted and understand your feelings classifying a inline as a primitive weapon. You and I have been email buddies for a couple years and both of us know at times we think so much alike or have the same things in common. We aren't going to agree on everything.I'm sure you know that from being married for over 30 years LOL.Got-cha!

I have never had a scope on any Black Powder gun before.Georgia(where I used to hunt before our couple moves in the last couple years) a few years back changed the law saying a scope could be used during primitive weapons season.Do I agree with that. Yes and No. I'm not making excuses but I'm getting older and a scope makes it easier on my eyes.Especially since I was diagnosed with diabetes.I don't want to wound or cripple an animal. I want to make the most humane kills possible.I feel I can best achieve that using a scope.My eyes and iron sights aren't what they were even a few years ago..

No my friend if we like it or not things and methods of ways we used to do things are going to change. If we agree with them or not it's still going to happen. There's people out there everyday dreaming up ways to change things that have been done the same way for the last 100 years or longer.

If they were to reclassify the inlines to a modern firearm and let them only be used during or while modern gun is open I wouldn't have a problem with that.The only problem I do have with reclassifying inlines as a modern firearm is the Federal 4473 form would have to be filled out. The less Uncle Sam knows especially with this new so called President going to be taking office soon the better off we all are/or will be.
No I haven't changed my feelings about NObama.

As for me hunting during primitive weapons it's doesn't make a hill of beans to me if I use a ole smoke pole or my Knight Disc.If the inlines weren't accepted by the wildlife commissions, DNR,etc I would probably have still gotten a inline if for nothing else but playing with it at the range.They are allot of fun shooting.All they did was give me another choice what I want to use.

Actually and you can believe this or not I'm not a new product user or a trend follower as a rule.I still use Hoppe's #9.Years will go by before I try something that you just have to have.Thermacell was out for a long time before I tried one.How long have GPS's been out? I got one two years ago and that's only because we were moving to parts unknown to us. My new Truck I got in 06 was the first CD player I ever owned.Now my 08 has one,so I've had two of them since they came out how many years ago.VCR's were out for several years before I bought one. I guess I want others to be the Guinea pig before I buy something..

I've pretty much said all I know to say on this subject,you have opened my eyes on things I never gave a second thought about though.I guess my next moved is buy one of the super new bows put a laser sight on it,a scope and pin sights just in case.Do they have broad heads the light up so you can see your target at night LOL. No I'm not ready for that big a change LOL.

You have made several good points and I agree, now if the game commissions see it your way remains to be seen.I have a feeling they are here to stay if we like them or not.

[Mongojoe]

Uhhhhhh.... Excuse me, but we were now discussing Pauley Perrette, the actress who plays Abby Sciuto, the forensic scientist, on NCIS.

[whitelightning]

Well don't know nothin bout no NCIS.

J.S. Pauley designed and Patented a INLINE action in 1812 in London. Thats what some 4 years after the Percussion cap was invented.

The action should not determine the designation of primitive or not, unless it is of closed breech design and does not utilize a Musket or #11 cap. An inline action will NOT make the rifle shoot farther hit harder or some of the other things guy's assume. I have several inline rifles and sidelocks too, in the Field during wet and freezing conditions I have had my inline action freeze not allowing it to strike the #11 cap. I have Never had this happen to one of my Sidelock's.

Sabots have been around for a long time also. I do not think Jacketed bullets should be used in a BP rifle, however Cali may make this choice for us.

I just believe that if we keep on with this if it ain't a sidelock or flinter it ain't primitive thinking, we are going to loose more hunting opportunities than we already have. Here in Washington thats already been more than any other form of hunting weapon.

[quigleysharps4570]

I'm betting that Pauley in-line didn't have a stainless steel barrel, synthetic stock, scope or shoot a plastic saboted copper bullet ignited by some replica powder.

[whitelightning]

I would guess you to be correct on the powder and jacketed bullets, sabots are possible in the time frame.

I do not use scopes and would agree that they should not be used on a M/L.

"Primitive Season" well a would say if you really want to be primitive than I hope you did not drive your $wheel drive truck to the hunt area and that you keep your ATV at home. The 62 cal ball you have was made from lead that has never seen modern proccessing either. I do not beleive that "Primitive" is a desrcription that can be close to accurate in these times.
Nothing you bring nto the woods today could be Primitive. IMO.

[Mongojoe]

Jan 15, 2010 0:34:34 GMT -5 whitelightning said:

I would guess you to be correct on the powder and jacketed bullets, sabots are possible in the time frame.

I do not use scopes and would agree that they should not be used on a M/L.

"Primitive Season" well a would say if you really want to be primitive than I hope you did not drive your $wheel drive truck to the hunt area and that you keep your ATV at home. The 62 cal ball you have was made from lead that has never seen modern proccessing either. I do not beleive that "Primitive" is a desrcription that can be close to accurate in these times.
Nothing you bring nto the woods today could be Primitive. IMO.

Well, last I looked at the state regulations there was no mention of how a person got to where they were going to hunt... And I don't recall seeing anywhere anything pertaining to "Primitive Modes of Transportation During Primitive Hunting Season."... So, in that respect, they are not calling something, other than what it actually is... But, calling a season a "Muzzle Loader Season" is fine...many, if not most, of the new in-lines are muzzle loaders...or even calling it "Black Powder Season" is fine as well, because I believe that all of them, if I am not mistaken, can be used quite readily with black powder, even those adapted to smokeless powders... But, "primitive" they are not, not by any stretch of the imagination..........

Now, 2 or 3 centuries into the future, I may well have to change my views on the in-line rifles of today, and may, at that time, very well lump them into the "primitive" catagory.....along with other rifles considered primitive at that time, such as Blunderbusses, match-locks, flint-locks, Brown Bess rifle-muskets, Hawken rifles, Sharps, Trapdoor Springfields...Marlin 336's, 98-K Mausers, Remington 700's, Ruger 10/22s, Savage 110's, Winchester Model 70's, AK-47's, M-16's, etc., etc, etc.........but not at this particular point in time.